tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post9165854065653915684..comments2024-03-18T15:52:46.631+00:00Comments on Liberal England: The Liberal Democrats should accept David Cameron's offer in some formJonathan Calderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00730157683743989696noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-53829574258672110852010-05-11T21:21:19.860+01:002010-05-11T21:21:19.860+01:00Matthew Huntbach,
STVS/"AV" may be a tr...Matthew Huntbach,<br /><br />STVS/"AV" may be a trivial reform to you, but it changes everything for voters, because it means that no vote is wasted, in that you can vote for your first preference and still be able to choose between the eventual front runners. Of course it is not PR, it is Preference Voting with the Single Transferable Vote in existing Single member constituencies.<br /><br />Under STVS/"AV" many more Liberals and Liberal Democrats would have been elected over the years. The wasted vote argument would no longer have applied. There would have been many fewer safe seats over the years, and the Liberal Party and the Liberal Democrats would have grown stronger more quickly, at least until they became EU- and Euro-fanatic, as the BBC's study referred to by "anweald" shows.<br /><br />There were no Liberal MPs in the Berks, Bucks and Oxon area in the 1970s, but there would have been in 1974 in Newbury with STVS/"AV" (Con 24,000, Lib 23,000, Lab 10,000), after a rapid growth in the number of Liberal councillors in that constituency. The same might well have been true with STVS/"AV" in the areas you mention. It might well have solved the problem you mention, and it certainly would have solved the wasted vote problem - and would have made many previously safe seats unsafe.Dane Cloustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13652313780990693351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-19574713640304149092010-05-11T14:14:31.396+01:002010-05-11T14:14:31.396+01:00The BBC's page Would AV have changed history (...The BBC's page Would AV have changed history (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm) shows, mostly, that AV would have enlarged the winners' majority with Lib Dem gaining many seats at the expense of the 2nd place party. Far from going the extra mile it serves Tory interests.anwealdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16761322060679556268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-15009818393754148292010-05-11T13:09:29.774+01:002010-05-11T13:09:29.774+01:00Dane Clouston
The offer by the Conservative Party...Dane Clouston<br /><i><br />The offer by the Conservative Party of a referendum on the Single Transferable Vote in existing Single member constituencies (STVS / "AV")changes everything<br /></i><br />It changes almost nothing. It is a trivial reform, hardly worth bothering with. It is typical of the innumeracy of Tories and their supporters that some of them think this is "PR". Some of them are so incapable of handling numbers and logic that they really do think the distortion caused by the current system is because the constituencies do not have exactly equal numbers of electors.<br /><br />A system which leaves the whole of Kent, Surrey and Sussex without a single Labour MP, when there were hundreds of thousands of people in those counties who voted Labour, is wrong. Labour voters in those counties deserve someone who can speak for them, the fact that Labour gets a similar distortion in their favour in the north and Scotland is no comfort. Ever heard a Scots or Yorkshire Labour MP plead the particular problems of growing up poor in Sussex? <br /><br />Growing up poor in Sussex myself, every MP for 50 miles a Tory, is what pushed me to support electoral reform, and then to support the Liberal Party because Labour seemed quite happy with this arrangement whereby I was left with either local Tory or northern Labour MPs to speak for me (which they never did). <br /><br />AV does not solve this problem at all, it still means "biggest wins all, regional minorities win nothing".Matthew Huntbachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18255872047710686115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-53851711038617202822010-05-11T09:48:23.805+01:002010-05-11T09:48:23.805+01:00"Anonymous"
It looks as if you are miss..."Anonymous"<br /><br />It looks as if you are missing the point. We voters do not need precise Proportional Representation. We do need to be able to vote 1,2,3.. and so have a say between the two eventual front runners in our existing constituencies, whatever our first preference may have been. The offer by the Conservative Party of a referendum on the Single Transferable Vote in existing Single member constituencies (STVS / "AV")changes everything, providing it and any legislation to put the decision into effect is agreed to be put through before any next General Election, however soon it may be held. That is a great move by the Conservatives. And brilliant negotiating by the Liberal Democrats. Preferential Voting without precise Proportional Representation. We must now hope for a Conservative / Liberal Democrat coalition to give us the stable government we so badly need at this time.<br /><br />That does not mean that I do not know how difficult that will be for many Liberal Democrats, having very nearly been elected 15th or 16th Liberal MP (for Newbury) in 1974, fighting a Conservative. This time I voted Labour in a safe Conservative seat in order to give one more vote for STVS ("AV"). It looks as if we are getting there.<br />There is no alternative to optimism!Dane Cloustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13652313780990693351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-2422659885028248182010-05-11T09:09:01.448+01:002010-05-11T09:09:01.448+01:00Looks like you're going to have to change the ...Looks like you're going to have to change the name of your blog. After this debacle, there isn't going to be a liberal England. There isn't going to be PR either. Oh, and BTW, you've almost certainly already lost any referendum on anything at all........Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-61379488048912899432010-05-10T21:31:29.501+01:002010-05-10T21:31:29.501+01:00"Anonymous",
Now it's all change ag..."Anonymous",<br /><br />Now it's all change again! For the Conservatives have offered a referendum on STVS ("AV") - without any Proportional Representation or multi-member constituencies add on.<br /><br />If there is a way of making sure that this referendum is held before the next General Election, then surely the Conservatives now deserve to form a stable government in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, with a decent majority representing a decent majority of votes, however difficult many Liberal Democrats may find the prospect.<br /><br />I am pleased to think that the Liberal Democrat EU- and Euro-enthusiasm will be restrained, and also that the Conservatives' passion for inequality of opportunity with vast and increasing exemptions from Inheritance Tax will also be restrained.<br /><br />We may even see moves in due course towards British Universal Inheritance - alredy the party policy of the EU-sceptic Liberal Party - to give genuinely greater equality of opportunity. See www.universal-inheritance.orgDane Cloustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13652313780990693351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-75351567528343879672010-05-10T19:24:39.956+01:002010-05-10T19:24:39.956+01:00"Anonymous",
In answer to your post, it..."Anonymous",<br /><br />In answer to your post, it's not a tick in a box, it's an illiterate X ! - which is almost entirely useless in a safe Conservative constituency like the one in which I live. We voters want our votes to count. No reason to stop our votes from counting just because people with the cast of mind you describe cannot be bothered to rank alternatives in order of preference.<br /><br />I hope that the blinkered view you describe is either an exaggeration or a joke.<br /><br />How about a government by a majority for a change? Why should the third party not call the shots - the other two have been calling the shots on a minority vote for too long. The Liberal Democrats got a lot of votes - not mine, I have to say, because of its EU- and Euro-fanaticism, even though I am still a liberal. I am pleased to say that I voted Labour for the first time in my life, to give one more vote to the Single Transferable vote in existing Single Member constituencies - STVS aka "AV" - Preferential Voting without precise Proportional Representation, keeping the constituency link. I want to vote 1,2,3.. instead of X in a General Election before I die (not imminent, I trust!).<br /><br />Once we have STVS ("AV"), an EU-sceptic Liberal Party will start to grow. In the meantime, roll on a Labour / Lib Dem coalition - just as long as the Lib Dems do not take us into the Euro, as they disastrously would have done if they could have done!Dane Cloustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13652313780990693351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-87677834480737623272010-05-10T16:22:41.347+01:002010-05-10T16:22:41.347+01:00Phil wrote (10 May, 15:18):
"Labour activist...Phil wrote (10 May, 15:18): <br />"Labour activists generally hate the party - very often more than they hate the Tories" <br />I'd disagree there, Phil: I've campaigned for Labour a few times over the years, but never encountered that. It's certainly true that a lot hated the SDP in the 1980s for siphoning off 3 million previously Labour votes and (as we saw it) helping the Tories to stay in power. But that was a generation ago, and even then there I saw little ill-will toward the older wing of the then Alliance, who were after all only doing what Labour would have happily done had the positions been reversed. I honestly think you can add most mainstream Labour activists to that pool of goodwill that threatens to go up in smoke. Labour activists may be a good deal more forgiving than left-leaning LibDem voters: some may even consider a spell out of government in the present economic climate a bullet well dodged. <br /><br />- Dave PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-57708443121062184452010-05-10T15:18:32.005+01:002010-05-10T15:18:32.005+01:00Euan - the Liberals haven't really been equidi...Euan - the Liberals haven't really been equidistant between the two main parties since David Steel's leadership (i.e. 30+ years). For most of that time there's been a lot of diffuse goodwill among Labour supporters towards the Liberals/Lib Dems, from which the Lib Dems have profited greatly (often at Labour's expense, it has to be said). Labour <b>activists</b> generally hate the party - very often more than they hate the Tories - but most Labour voters aren't activists and don't see the world the same way.<br /><br />If the party forms a governing alliance with the Conservatives, 30 years of benign tolerance (and benign tactical voting) will go up in smoke; you won't just be hearing "Yellow Tories" from Labour campaigners, you'll hear it on the doorstep.<br /><br /><i>It seems pretty sad to consider "detesting a party for life" just because they're prepared to work with a party that isn't your own...</i><br /><br />On the contrary, I'd be delighted to see the Lib Dems working with anything up to five parties that aren't my own. Working with the <b>Tories</b> is a very different matter. If that last sentence doesn't make immediate, visceral sense to you, just take it from me that there are lots of people for whom it does - lots of <i>Guardian</i>-readers, even.Philhttp://gapingsilence.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-45467102529018675462010-05-10T14:47:47.503+01:002010-05-10T14:47:47.503+01:00"Nor am I convinced that Gordon Brown, or any..."Nor am I convinced that Gordon Brown, or any other Labour leader, would be able to persuade the bulk of his party to campaign for PR in any referendum. It might be possible to win a referendum under such circumstances, but it would not be easy." <br />But isn't that what referenda are for? When it's not easy and when pushing a lasting decision through parliament isn't straightforward? Some in Labour will always oppose PR for understandable reasons, and I can't see the "right" circumstances in which a leader might deliver a solid Labour "Yes" ever coming about. The likelihood of losing still more seats under FPTP after a Lab-Lib government to a Tory party already on 307 will concentrate Labour minds wonderfully and may be the best circumstances you'll ever get. Otherwise you're looking at huge Labour gains from a Con-Lib "government of cuts" and winding up with PR off the agenda for another decade or more. <br /><br />"If the hand we have been dealt this time makes Lib/Con cooperation inevitable, so be it." I'd still say that it doesn't. Keeping the Nationalists on board would be a challenge, but that's what politics is about. They'll have to make a commitment that they won't look to escape the cuts that will have to come, but that's surely implicit in Salmond's offer to join in a UK-wide progressive cause - if not, then there's no viable deal, but the parties of the centre & left should be exploring that option. <br /><br />That said, it's a difficult situation for all and I wish us all good luck, whatever happens. I hope that LibDems don't let any Cameron government inflict the costs of the crisis on those least able to pay for it and who did least to bring it about: if not, Labour will be the big winners next time round and LibDems could themselves pay a heavy cost. If you must give ground on electoral reform, at least ensure that the Tories likewise concede on social justice: taming the voracious "feed the rich" beast could yield handsome dividends. <br /><br />- Dave PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-60222223456255141062010-05-10T13:48:19.235+01:002010-05-10T13:48:19.235+01:00A little thought to sober us all up. The crisis in...A little thought to sober us all up. The crisis in Greece is far more serious than the proportion of UK headline space it got would suggest; even though we are not in the Euro, our biggest export market is teetering on the brink of a depression that would make Dante's descent into hell look like a merry-go-round. On top of that, the UK owes more money than at any point in history, but we still haven't finished paying for unwinding all the damage done to public services in the 80s.<br /><br />Make no mistake, if we end up going to the polls again - either 6 months into a minority Tory government or 6 months into a rag-bag "progressive coalition," it won't matter who wins because the only thing they'll be able to do is fire everyone. If we're to salvage a country worth governing, we need a government with enough of a majority to move past arguments about what ought to happen in a fictionalised ideal world and actually get difficult and unpleasant things done. The only offer on the table is Lib Dem/ Conservative: Lib-Lab ceased to be viable when they didn't have a majority of >30 or so between them.<br /><br />If any party - Lib Dem, Labour or Conservative - is seen to effectively bankrupt the country in order to maintain party advantage or placate obstreperous activists, they deserve to be out of power for a generation or more.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12831317440041138692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-36968626788454321592010-05-10T13:45:55.843+01:002010-05-10T13:45:55.843+01:00I reluctantly voted Tory in this election. I'm...I reluctantly voted Tory in this election. I'm very turned off by their eurosceptic, socially conservative wing but I thought we needed strong govt in a difficult economic situation, and I doubted whether this was possible with a hung parliament. I thought Gordon Brown definitely needed to go so didn't consider voting labour.<br /><br />If the Lib Dems are able to form a stable and orderly coalition, proving that a hung parliament isn't so bad, and that they are a competent party of government, I'll be much more likely to vote for them next time. They have a lot of talented front benchers and good policies and I'm optimistic they can be a very good moderating influence on the Tories.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16952561101499587984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-14923933334968465532010-05-10T13:18:02.806+01:002010-05-10T13:18:02.806+01:00"But we, the VOTERS, first of all want Prefer..."But we, the VOTERS, first of all want Preferential Voting, (Voting 1,2,3.. instead of the often useless X in safe seats)", <br /><br />No we don't Diane, you speak for yourself.<br /><br />After putting my tick in the box, I am not left with other options.<br /><br />I don't see Labour or the Lib Dems as second best, I don't want them at all. I am not going to vote for some irrelvant fringe party or for facists.<br /><br />Quite simply I want to pick 1 party/mp and thats it.<br /><br />It is clear that such a system will only benefit Lib Dems, Lib Dems will vote LD first, rthe majority Lbaour second and a few Cons second. Labour voters will all vote LD second, whereas Cons would not want to vote either?<br /><br />This may be fair to you but it isn't to me. To have a system, that allocates seats fairer I am all for, but you pick 1 party only.<br /><br />Delegated Vote system (DV) is proportional, it can also result in majority governmnet, what we are seeing here I think is unpalatable.<br /><br />The third party is calling all the shots, and picking the goverment the tail is wagging the dogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-73392489529276088722010-05-10T13:15:06.316+01:002010-05-10T13:15:06.316+01:00How about looking at the national interest rather ...How about looking at the national interest rather than your prejudices and party self-interest? You really think Brown has been a good PM? You really think PR is more important than the economy? Would you rather have PR or good schools, ID cards abolished, an end to red tape and the awful authoritarianism of Labour? This is the problem with the LibDems, you spend your entire lives looking inwards and analysing yourselves, and obsessing about how elections are won instead of actually winning them. The LibDems should be the second party in the UK, you should have replaced Labour years ago, yet you let Blair steal your clothes when you were (guess what) busy hating the Tories and campaigning for electoral reform. Now you finally have a chance to act like a real party and in the process split off the Blairite wing of Labour, yet instead you turn inwards and go all shy, like little girls at their first disco. For goodness sake, grow up, grow a pair and start acting like people who actually care about governing the country, not how the governing party is elected!Tim Hammondnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-9874387303156435522010-05-10T13:06:36.970+01:002010-05-10T13:06:36.970+01:00If the Tories and Lib Dems can form a strong gover...If the Tories and Lib Dems can form a strong government then anyone can. It's the best advert for PR anyone could wish for.anwealdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16761322060679556268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-78118190001707413352010-05-10T12:41:21.961+01:002010-05-10T12:41:21.961+01:00No arrangement should be acceptable to Liberal Dem...No arrangement should be acceptable to Liberal Democrats unless it makes it certain that the next election, however soon it is held, will be held under STVS ("AV") in existing Single member constituencies. MPs ought to be able to support this because it keeps their constituencies intact. Whereas STVM ("STV")merges them with others, something which, having been so very nearly elected as a Liberal MP in 1974, the last time there was such a close hung Parliament, I know that as MP for Newbury, a constitutency to which I was very attached, I would never have supported. <br /><br />However, many party ACTIVISTS, rather than MPs or voters, may want precise Proportional Representation with STVM ("STV") in Multi-member constituencies or in other ways. <br /><br />But we, the VOTERS, first of all want Preferential Voting, (Voting 1,2,3.. instead of the often useless X in safe seats), not necessarily with precise Proportional Representation. <br /><br />If Liberal Democrat MPs and activists are offered a certainty of STVS ("AV") by Labour before any next General Election, however soon it may be held (an offer I understand may already have been made by Gordon Brown), and turn it down in favour of the Conservatives if the latter do not offer such a certainty, they will never be forgiven.Dane Cloustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13652313780990693351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-91923859961492858342010-05-10T12:24:26.943+01:002010-05-10T12:24:26.943+01:00'Another Phil' - why should it concern the...'Another Phil' - why should it concern the Lib Dems what the 'red lines' of Labour voters are?<br /><br />Just as much as they aren't simply "Yellow Tories" - they aren't "Yellow Labour" either!<br /><br />It seems pretty sad to consider "detesting a party for life" just because they're prepared to work with a party that isn't your own...Euanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14239828515302679136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-44911556560518227482010-05-10T12:17:46.330+01:002010-05-10T12:17:46.330+01:00I would just like to say that I actually agree wit...I would just like to say that I actually agree with the original blog almost in its entirety. We must accept the cards we have been dealt in this election.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329837481900188039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-55214688670614475572010-05-10T12:16:18.560+01:002010-05-10T12:16:18.560+01:00If we're going to have PR, then we're goin...If we're going to have PR, then we're going to have to get rid of tribal attitudes to politics, which won't be easy - the kind of people who hate the Tories because they don't like what Thatcher did 30 years ago are a real obstacle to the kind of pragmatic coalition-building that's needed when no-one has a dominant share of the vote.<br /><br />Meanwhile, a lot of people don't seem to have noticed that the Conservative manifesto promised that if 100,000 people petitioned Parliament with a proposal, Parliament would be obliged to consider it. If that proposal were a request for a referendum on electoral change, it would be very hard for Parliament to refuse it: ultimately, it has to be the electorate that decides how to elect its representatives. So a good strategy now for the Lib Dems, rather than insisting on PR as a precondition for the coalition, would be to work with the Tories to establish the constitutional principle of holding a referendum when the electorate petitions for one.Michael Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06288219055537260358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-28647748816372005702010-05-10T12:07:35.130+01:002010-05-10T12:07:35.130+01:00YOU SAID
“””Liberal Democrat councillors are happ...YOU SAID<br /><br />“””Liberal Democrat councillors are happy to work with their Conservative counterparts up and down the country. We used to run Leicester with them; we still run Birmingham”””<br /><br /><br />ERRRRR... YES and the CON / LIB DEM coalition in Birmingham Council is a total DISASTER. Birmingham was a city moving forward until this coalition was put in place, and since then the city has fallen into a downward spiral of economic and social demise. Next year Birmingham will be the first City in England to go BUST. 3 Billion short fall on pay for employees, voting irregularities, infrastructure projects mothballed, nevermind “baby P”, Birmingham has had baby A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O and P. 15 child deaths linked to their disastrous social services dept.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-32475572978871310012010-05-10T12:03:29.939+01:002010-05-10T12:03:29.939+01:00I don't see that there can be an automatic bar...<i>I don't see that there can be an automatic bar on working with the Conservatives.</i><br /><br />Fair enough, but I don't think you appreciate just what a red line this is for <b>Labour</b> voters - and Labour-sympathising Lib Dems voters. Speaking as a socialist, I've had friends who were Liberals and Lib Dems, and frequently been embarrassed to admit how many of my own goals were in their party's manifesto. I've never been a Lib Dem hater; I've always maintained that the party was basically among the good guys. If you add it all up I've probably spent several days of my life arguing against the "Yellow Tories" smear.<br /><br />The moment your lot goes into coalition with the Tories, I'm afraid all of that goes out the window. The "Yellow Tories" crowd will get to say they were right all along, and an awful lot of sympathy (and a huge reserve of potential votes) will disappears for a generation. I know I'll detest your party for life, and I've never even voted for them - I don't like to think how Labour-sympathising tactical voters will feel. <br /><br />If that's what you want, go for it.<br /><br />And it's just not true that the 'traffic light' coalition would need<br /><br /><i>to keep the flakiest Nationalist happy in order to stay in power</i><br /><br />There are 644 MPs who turn up and vote in divisions, and 320 of those votes are whipped or as good as (Labour + LD + SDLP + APNI + Lady Sylvia Hermon). To win a vote against that lineup Cameron would need all 306 Tories (not including the Speaker) plus 15 of the remaining 18 - 8 DUP MPs (who were elected on a platform of not being allied with the Tories), 3 Plaid Cymru, 6 SNP and a Green. That doesn't look promising to me. (I'm doing the sums on the basis of Thirsk going Tory - if it goes your way, which is possible, the basic Labour/Lib Dem alliance goes up to 321 votes.)Another Philhttp://gapingsilence.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-82005715940752984752010-05-10T11:15:55.793+01:002010-05-10T11:15:55.793+01:00The biggest problem is that the Lib Dems could be ...The biggest problem is that the Lib Dems could be in a lose-lose-lose situation. Support either the Tories or Labour in a coalition and they may well lose out at the next election whether the performance of the coalition was good or not - people won't bother voting Lib Dem if it was successful, as they'll vote for the lead party and they won't if it was a disaster. And equally they won't vote for them again if they eventually decide to stand on the sidelines leading to a minority government and likely second election. It'll be the Lib Dem core voters only. It's a nightmare scenario which can only be offset by some sort of movement on electoral reform - whether PR or or boundary changes, etc. Fingers are crossed!jamescbartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07852155818007226406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-30627702187086706242010-05-10T11:13:47.428+01:002010-05-10T11:13:47.428+01:00Sometimes I think some Lib Dem members (and activi...Sometimes I think some Lib Dem members (and activists) view the party the same way the old Communist Party viewed themselves: as a kind of half-party, a ginger group there to keep the Labour Party honest.<br /><br />These kinds of folk have fallen for the Labour self-image (the big Labour lie) that they are well-meaning angels - perhaps angels with dirty faces sometimes, but angels all the same. And that just isn't true.<br /><br /><br />Surely the point is that we must replace the Labour Party - and propping it up in some kind of lame government is no way to achieve that end....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-12141877870347927822010-05-10T11:07:53.656+01:002010-05-10T11:07:53.656+01:00Any Lib Dem supporter who argues against an agreem...Any Lib Dem supporter who argues against an agreement (coalition or otherwise) with the Tories as being detrimental to the party, as some are doing, is forgetting that proportional representation would make this sort of situation much more common. To argue that its better to stay in your party trench rather than sit down with another party and govern in the country's interest, is actually to argue against PR, or at least the inevitable consequence of PR!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6606798.post-14658359939738692682010-05-09T12:09:42.106+01:002010-05-09T12:09:42.106+01:00Background first - I voted conservative. Having sa...Background first - I voted conservative. Having said that, not a lot of point in voting LD in Chorley!<br /><br />Anyhow, just wanted to say that "I agree with Vince". <br /><br />Vince Cable pointed out this morning that the electorate had delivered a "perfect snooker". That's correct. So, let's examine it. <br /><br />1/ Try to play the red ball? No chance. You'll hit the yellow and be docked points. That's inevitable. Despite the thousands of column inches and millions of TV words, this is all but impossible and at least Nick Clegg seems to know that well. <br /><br />2/ Don't play the ball at all? In 9 out of 10 cases, this might be possible. However, "what's best for the country" means that today (if you take that course), you'll be mullered in England in the next election for sure. It also entirely negates the cause of coalition Government - a sensational double own-goal. The ball has to be played. There is no choice. <br /><br />3/ So, you have to play the blue ball. In the perfect snooker, the question then is, what sort of shot can be played? The truth is that if you play anything less than a fully committed strike, you'll miss. Above everything else, you need to hold out for a LONG agreement because a short term agreement will kill you. You need time to make it work and you need to avoid a no-win short-term re-election. Be clear, PR CANNOT be delivered. It doesn't matter who promises it, it can't actually happen. Cameron won't promise it because he knows his back-benches won't deliver. Brown promises it anyhow EVEN THOUGH he knows his back-benches won't deliver. Aditionally, no moral imperative can be claimed because the truth is the PR Party was CREAMED in the actual election (there's no getting away from this). I reckon the top LD brass know this right well. If this is a deal-breaker, you're truly snookered. <br /><br />Don't forget, there's a huge penalty to pay for not playing the ball. <br /><br />Simples.Brett - Chorleynoreply@blogger.com